I wish Jillian nothing but happiness. She seems to have made the choice that she needed to make. I am with Reid that I'm not so sure she'll always be as certain about her decision as she'd have us believe. I mean no disrespect to any Ed fan, but there was always something about him - something that I can't describe or put my finger on - that I just didn't trust. That was my feeling from the very first night and it hasn't changed.
The Ed fans on the board are ferocious. While I'll admit that there have been some Reid fans who have gone too far, I found the Ed fans to be nasty and attacking toward ALL Reid fans for reasons I will never understand. It continues today, I'm sorry to say. The irony of that is that the very thing of which they accuse us "Reidsters" - the inability to see clearly and be rational - is the thing that I find most disturbing about them. They REFUSE to see the connection that was so evident between Reid and Jillian. They skewer him for his inability or unwillingness to put his feelings into words on such a short timeline. Truth be told, if I were the Bachelorette, I think I would gravitate towards the men who weren't as quick to say words they thought I wanted to hear, but were willing to show it. Why? Well, it's simple, I think there are men on the show who are willing to say anything out of a pathological sense of competition, not for the love of the woman.
In some deep well in my heart, I feel the desire to protect Reid. I watched his heart get ripped out not once, but twice. And, he did nothing to deserve it. The pain he felt was evident in his eyes and it was heartwrenching for me to watch. It wasn't gone during the ATFR. His pain was still raw and palpable. So, I attempted to use the logic of the B board against the users of the B board. Alas, these Ed fans are incapable of reason and chose instead to bash me and other Reid fans for not being able to let go. Now, I haven't lost any sleep over this, so I assure you that my psyche is in tact. However, I do have a hard time accepting the fact that ANYONE could've missed what so obviously existed between Jillian and Reid. Just as I have a hard time accepting that Jillian let something and someone so amazing slip through her fingers. It's my nature . . . I have to ask "why?"
What I find amazing is that all season long, so many people wrote about Jillian being insecure. Now, some of those same people are saying that she didn't really have feelings for Reid or she would've picked him. Why is it such a hard leap to make that maybe her insecurities are what got in the way of her relationship with Reid, not her feelings . . . or his for that matter? If she is insecure, wouldn't logic dictate that the fact that Reid couldn't open up played into her insecurities? But, someone who was able to tell her what she wanted/needed to hear (not saying whether Ed meant it or not, just reasoning through this) would make her feel more secure about the relationship and herself? And so, that's who she would pick? How can anyone, especially those who debated whether or not Jillian was confident and secure, not see these things?
I say this because I thought it was crystal clear that Jillian genuinely had feelings for Reid . . . even at the ATFR. That doesn't mean that she doesn't love Ed, but just because she picked Ed doesn't mean that she doesn't have deep, romantic, loving feelings for Reid. Frankly, I think if Reid would've opened up sooner, the outcome may well have been different. I know some people will respond that she said otherwise and that the outcome wouldn't have been any different, but what's she going to say with Ed and the world listening? On the other hand, I watched the torture she went through trying to sort it out. I watched the smile creep upon her face when Reid got down on one knee. I watched how heartbroken she was both times she sent Reid away. And, like Chris Harrison, I actually thought and hoped for a breathless moment that she might chose Reid after all.
All of her moments with Reid were the most real all season. Most of those brought me joy, but both times she rejected him, I felt pain for both of them because I watched something beautiful and precious disintegrate right before my eyes and there was nothing I could do to stop it. Those painful moments were very real as well. You'd think you'd have more of those on a reality show, but they were few and far between. As for the B board, there's no logic, no humor, no humanity, and no tolerance among some of the posters. It saddens me that something that could've been so beautiful has been sullied and minimized by some of the posters on that board. So, I came here to be among friends, who will help me figure out what happened without judging me for feeling a sense of loss for both Jillian and Reid.
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Hi luvbachelorette,
ReplyDeleteYou are indeed among friends. This is a warm, inviting place to be and I'm so glad you found us.
I wholeheartedly agree with you that Jillian's insecurities got in the way of seeing that Reid was on his way to declaring his love but just wasn't operating on 'Fleiss time'.
I'm not sure there is any hope left for 'Rilly', but you can never say never. I know that I'm only able to speculate on the little interaction they showed between Jillian and her suitors but from what I did see, Jillian's bond seemed the most magical with Reid.
M.
Marianna,
ReplyDeleteThank you for the welcome. I'm honored to be here and I am grateful to April for inviting me.
I was Jillian. I never had 30 hunky men to choose from at one time or cameras following my every move, but I was Jillian. I was Jillian from the standpoint that I had a childhood that caused me to live the better part of my life very insecure and lacking confidence. So, I recognize the traits in Jillian and I feel for her.
But I have made the mistake of dating the same type of guy over and over and over again because I had some bizarre idea in my head of what the perfect guy would look like, be like, act like, etc. The first time I met a guy that was different from my mental model, I wasn't sure what to do. Suddenly, my role in the relationship was different. I got roses once a week, every week, for months with cards telling me how special I was and how much he loved me. I ran away because it scared me to death. On some level, I guess I felt like I couldn't live up to his ideal of me. BIGGEST MISTAKE I EVER MADE!!!!
After I broke up with him, I went right back to dating guys who looked good on paper in terms of being a good mate. I did that for YEARS. Got married. Got divorced. Got pregnant at 35. Lived with him. Broke up with baby daddy. It was the same relationship over and over . . . like Groundhog Day. They all fell hard for me VERY quickly, which made me feel special, but it didn't last and they all turned rapidly into selfish jerks. After I broke up with my daughter's father, I realized the pattern and changed my thinking. Now, I'm dating a wonderful man who took a long time to admit his feelings for me to me, but when he did, I knew he meant it. And, I'm happier than I've ever been in my life. But, he doesn't have the "qualifications" that I thought I was looking for. He's handsome, but not the type that I usually went for. He's shorter than I thought I'd fall for. But, none of that matters, because he makes me laugh all the time and we truly are best friends. He treats me with respect and as an equal.
How did I transition from relationship trainwreck to relationship heaven? I realized that the problem was MY confidence. I attracted jerks and I kept them because they told me what I wanted/needed to hear quickly. I believed their words over their actions. I'm a very smart woman, but I was stupid when it came to this kind of thing because, like Jillian, I had some insecurities and lacked confidence. I had to face those issues, learn to give myself a break, and then I was capable of breaking the cycle.
IMO, Jillian passed Reid by because his inability to verbally express his feelings made her insecure. Ed, on the other hand, was able to say those things. But, there's no doubt that Reid showed Jillian how he felt all the time and that's not something that I've seen from Ed at all. I think Reid scared Jillian because he was different from her mental model. I think Reid scared Jillian because she wasn't secure enough in herself to believe what she was experiencing over what she was hearing. I think Reid would've made Jillian incredibly happy IF she had been ready to face her own insecurities. I just don't think she was ready. Despite her choice, Reid was the one who touched her soul and vice versa. He just wasn't the safe bet and Ed was. It is tragic that the timing was wrong, but I do sincerely hope that she and Ed work out. It's just that based on my experience, I am reserving judgment on their relationship.
Kelly
Luv B,
ReplyDeleteI love the way you write. I feel like you are here talking to me.
You said:
Why is it such a hard leap to make that maybe her insecurities are what got in the way of her relationship with Reid, not her feelings . . . or his for that matter? If she is insecure, wouldn't logic dictate that the fact that Reid couldn't open up played into her insecurities? But, someone who was able to tell her what she wanted/needed to hear (not saying whether Ed meant it or not, just reasoning through this) would make her feel more secure about the relationship and herself? And so, that's who she would pick? How can anyone, especially those who debated whether or not Jillian was confident and secure, not see these things?
Ann says:
I totally agree. That's exactly what I meant when I said, in another post, that I think it was Ed's confidence that attracted her. She and Reid were emotionally connected and shared their insecurities - that's what attracted them.
Thank you for helping me to see this about Reid, as I will admit I was not as convinced of the passion and connection you and so many others saw between them. I think that is a reflection of my own insecurities. I can ponder this for quite a while, in terms of my own relationships.
Joanne posted to Jim earlier:
"That said I adored - absolutely adored Reid as a person. You could sense his own lack of self esteem and maybe Jillian sensed that also. As humans we are attracted to other people that have attributes we wish we had and shy away from people that have the attributes we recognized and dislike in ourselves."
So if that's the way it works, I have to give some thought to why I ended up feeling most hurt for Kipton. When I think of him, I hear that old soul song "Oh Lord, Please don't let me be misunderstood" (I know I am dating myself- age wise, tee hee!)
As Heidi said in her post, poor Kipton has been swept under the rug. What did he ever do wrong? Nothing. So that was boring? Ok, the family were pretty scary, but keep in mind the editing. People complained about his kissing. Jillian didn't seem to and personally I've kissed enough guys to know that you can never tell until you are on the receiving end. Of course, chemistry is not made up of physical attraction alone. An unwanted kiss is just that.
I digress. I am so thankful that we have this forum and look forward to having a place to exchange thoughts with such bright, thoughtful people.
Ann
Ann,
ReplyDeleteKiptyn, I believe, was a victim of his editing. If you remember, he was considered a frontrunner early on (when they were in Vancouver). Reid, at that time, had not really distinguished himself to us, again, due to editing.
What all I've seen of him leads me believe that he is the quintessential nice guy. He also has a far-better body than either of the other F3 (my precious Reid included). That is why I was so surprised that he did not have as many fans as someone like him would normally have on this type of show.
M.
Marianna,
ReplyDeleteI agree he was edited in a strange way. What do you think it means on a broader level about what 'society' wants to see or how ABC imagines they want to see? He certainly didn't get the kind of early attention that Jake did on the boards.
It's all so annoying when you want to know what really went on and we'll never know. I guess that's the secret to the success of the show. We all wish we were either the Bach/ette or a fairy godmother waving a wand and opening some eyes and hearts too.
A
Dear Luv,
ReplyDeleteI'm really glad you could join us. I also extend my welcome to you.
First, let me say that I agree with your take on what transpired between Jillian and Ed and Reid. I think that you very perceptive.
Of course there are plenty of Ed fans who freely acknowledge the intensity of feeling between Reid and Jillian. Those people are not likely to attack you for wondering about Jillian's motivations. But for those who do, I don't think that they are trying to be nasty or refusing to see or understand. Well, some of them are. I think a lot of them simply cannot see the extreme chemistry between Jillian and Reid that is so glaringly obvious to a good many others.
I suspect that many of this small group of highly vocal attackers focus too heavily or even exclusively on the words and cannot read the body language. Imagine reading a transcript of the dialog of all the episodes without any description of what is done or how the words are spoken. You might be led to think that Ed's love for Jillian is deeper and more passionate than Reid's love for her. To them, the nonverbal expression of Reid's feelings was invisible to them. You may notice that they always revert to what was said and ignore everything else.
The greater dilemma for me is that Jillian is not one of those people. Some part of her understood Reid perfectly. I fear that one day she will realize this and come to regret her decision. I wonder if this has already begun. From everything I've seen of her since the ATFR show, she is intensely defensive of her decision and goes to great lengths to try to convince a skeptical public that she and Ed are madly in love and everything is beyond perfect. She is trying too hard for someone who is that much in love.
Thank you for sharing your story with us. It helped me to understand Jillian better. I'm so happy you broke out of this cycle yourself and found that man of your dreams!
Jim
This comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteMy loves!!!!
ReplyDeleteI double posted my above post.
Tons to say but waaaayyyyy too sleepy to devote adequate time and attention to the many wondrous posts and comments on our lovely new blog!!!!! But maybe this afternoon. Regardless, I posted this comment last night to LuvBach's thread on the ABC board. I thought everyone might like a looksie.
The startling difference between Reid and Ed is sincerity of heart. Despite post-show interviews in which both men quote their "friendly" disposition towards each other, they were each other's competition, an opposition set up in Epi 3 with the "he's a threat" comment per Reid.
Where Ed looks at Jill as a prize, at the experience as "I won" evidenced in his rolled-off-the-tongue professions of 'I love you" after 6 weeks, Reid operated according to genuineness of heart.
Like so many have said, I'd rather someone wait to be sure before he utters "those three words", I'd rather he SHOWED me everyday with his tender ways and in his soulful eyes, then have my ears filled with easy words.
Love don't come easy, but words, as this season proved, they often masquerade as love.
All the words from the "love-birds" of late continue to jam an image down our throats of bliss, unaware that the only image that seared us to our cores, that glistened with intensity and passion and heart and the chance of real, true, blue love was that of the tennis-shoed guy head- to -head with the girl who had his heart.
From her tears, from her eyes, from the hold she had on his jacket, even all her words now make it difficult to believe that she doesn't see his face when she's under the cover of solitude; when the physical is exhausted and the hype evaporated; when she remembers the first guy she reached toward as he held a ring.
Without Reid, I don't envy Jillian. Not one bit. But I do wish her well.
More later.
Til then, hugs,
Leen
Hi Leen,
ReplyDeleteThere were quite a few wonderful posts to the BBoard late last night and then some of those found a home here! Nadya and I stayed up too late reading them all and posting responses here. I read your post on the board, which was about 3:30 AM your time. You need to change shifts after you start dating Reid; this will never do.
This was perhaps the most beautiful post I've seen you write. And you have written many, many beautiful things. You have the heart of a poet. Perhaps you have a higher calling.
There is a high proportion of amazing writers in this small but growing group. Among us we have writers with various combinations of insight, analytical brilliance, humor, lyricism, beauty and heart. I sense that this may evolve into a writers' group one day. I am amazed every day by the amount of untapped talent here.
We'll talk to you when you wake up from your crazy schedule.
Love,
Papa Jim
Luv,
ReplyDeleteWow I feel quite privileged to get to hear a piece of your life! Thanks for sharing! I loved your original post and then during your follow up post this following paragraph stood out to me:
__________________________________
"But I have made the mistake of dating the same type of guy over and over and over again because I had some bizarre idea in my head of what the perfect guy would look like, be like, act like, etc. The first time I met a guy that was different from my mental model, I wasn't sure what to do. Suddenly, my role in the relationship was different. I got roses once a week, every week, for months with cards telling me how special I was and how much he loved me. I ran away because it scared me to death. On some level, I guess I felt like I couldn't live up to his ideal of me. BIGGEST MISTAKE I EVER MADE!!!!"
_________________________________
We are similar in that when I was about 22 I had the same type of person, and I too got scared when it got serious because I felt like I was too young. I wouldn't say it was really a self esteem issue in my case, but I was afraid to be partners with someone that would demand that type of commitment from me. In other words, a whole hearted love. I too commiserate in WHAT A BIG MISTAKE! So thank you for sharing!
Perhaps Jillian felt Ed was the safer choice... wow am I thinking Hubble from Barbara Streisand movie 'The Way We Were'... ooo just got chills here. It very MUCH fits! I might have to post separately about that after I think it through a bit more. Reid would have demanded Jillian be a better woman, as he was made a better man by her. Perhaps she wasn't ready for that kind of challenge. Ed won't be demanding that level of personal growth from her.
Decogirl/Marianna - I very much agree, why didn't Kiptyn get the fans? Very bizarre to me! That body! I really think that he was overshadowed by all the drama of the season. Ed coming back, David the jerk, Wes, then Reid! However when he was on his final dates (last two in Hawaii) and especially that last date when he got the time/edit he deserved he was like a different person and I just fell in love with him! The charity work, the conversation with Jillian - all wonderful things!
Leen and M - SO happy to hear from you! This is just like the message boards... but BETTER!
Ann: You asked:
ReplyDelete" What do you think it means on a broader level about what 'society' wants to see or how ABC imagines they want to see?"
My thoughts are that, although human nature can be somewhat cynical and loves to find fault and gossip about someone's shortcomings (hence Fleiss creating imperfections in his 'characters', even when those may not really be there: Wes, Jake, Juan, for example), at the core, we all want to believe in that fairy tale. Did you notice that it seemed as if the last 2 episodes were a lot less spliced and edited than all the previous ones?
You also noted:
"It's all so annoying when you want to know what really went on and we'll never know."
How true! But then it makes us all the more eager to watch the body language and put together the puzzle despite the missing pieces.
My opinion of Ed's love vs. Reid's love has really been cemented by watching their interactions on the very last 2 episodes: the finale and the ATFR. I have also watched with great interest the post-season interviews of the 'happy couple'. I don't doubt Jillian's giddy happiness at being engaged to such an eligible man. I just wish I could see the same connection as she had with Reid.
Leen: You said:
"All the words from the "love-birds" of late continue to jam an image down our throats of bliss, unaware that the only image that seared us to our cores, that glistened with intensity and passion and heart and the chance of real, true, blue love was that of the tennis-shoed guy head- to -head with the girl who had his heart.
From her tears, from her eyes, from the hold she had on his jacket, even all her words now make it difficult to believe that she doesn't see his face when she's under the cover of solitude; when the physical is exhausted and the hype evaporated; when she remembers the first guy she reached toward as he held a ring."
And I relived it all again... Such true words!
Luv: Thank you for sharing your personal story. I married completely against type as well. While I cannot say with absolute certainty that someone who was more my type would not have given me a lifetime of happiness, I know that someone who was, at first glance, the complete opposite of what I thought I wanted, could have been exactly what I needed.
Jim: You said:
"The greater dilemma for me is that Jillian is not one of those people. Some part of her understood Reid perfectly. I fear that one day she will realize this and come to regret her decision. I wonder if this has already begun. From everything I've seen of her since the ATFR show, she is intensely defensive of her decision and goes to great lengths to try to convince a skeptical public that she and Ed are madly in love and everything is beyond perfect. She is trying too hard for someone who is that much in love."
I think that when it looked to her as if Reid was not going to propose by the end of the show, she let him go and set her sights on a more sure prospect. Yes, she allowed herself to fall in love with Ed and to convince herself (with help from others around her) that Ed was the most sensible, practical choice. When Reid came back to propose, she would not have had the hesitation and the tears if she had stopped imagining her life and true happiness with him. She would simply have smiled sweetly and sent him on his way.
However, being sure that Ed was on his way to proposing (since he'd already read from the 'love script'), she now couldn't let him down. She had made a commitment to him and was determined to see it through. It caused her a lot of anguish, though, as we saw.
When everyday life intervenes, she may start to feel as if she let her true love slip through her hands.
On the other hand, she has told us on several occasions that she is used to working hard for her happiness. Just how hard she is willing to work to make a life with Ed a truly happy one, remains to be seen.
With Reid, it all seemed so much more effortless.
M.
Jim,
ReplyDeleteWanted to give you your own post Sir Tall Oak:
Since I am someone that can perceive body language it would never have occurred to me that some people can't! It's like being fluent in a language, you don't know you are, you just ARE! You are absolutely right, for people that don't have that elusive sixth sense, Ed would seem like the perfect catch.
I posted the pic of Reid and Jesse on my FB page (thanks LEEN) and one of my friends cousins posted back about how she thought Reid was a geek and didn't like him. So I admit I decided to evaluate what I know of her to see if some of our thoughts about non Reiders meshed. (I have met her quite a few times). They did. LOL. Let me just say that her husband is someone that doesn't provide for his family (can't hold onto a job), is enigmatic and more of "man code" David type. So when I asked her who she did like - she said David and I just about DIED! LOL. OY VEY! So some of our theories are dead on.
Once again we come to depth of character. A very Austenian topic! Jillian wasn't perceptive to it or perhaps not ready to accept it. You said it much more eloquently than I can. I whole heartedly agree. Once again! :)
I also agree that Leen's above post to the board that she copied to us was beautiful! I loved it!
Marianna,
ReplyDeleteYes I agree! It would have been oh so effortless with Reid, yet he would have demanded more commitment from her character. When faced with that possibility she ran. Whether she wonders about what could have been, none of us will ever know.
Just have to say I have enjoyed every word of this post. Thanks for all the sharing - love all the comments!!
ReplyDeleteAnd Kelly - you definitely deserve the best of everything. This is what so many young women (and mature) forget - we should settle for nothing less than what makes us happy and giddy and when that happens its usually two ways. If we have to work too hard its not worth it. To paraphrase from an infamous country crooner -LOVE Should Come Very Easy.
Posting on here is a like a big, warm hug! First, thanks to all for your kind words about what I wrote. I'm definitely in the presence of greatness where that's concerned!
ReplyDeleteI am blessed (or cursed, depending on how you look at it) with the ability to pick up on non-verbal cues. Some of my friends literally think I'm psychic because I have such strong intuition that is always spot on. They say, "how did you know that was going to happen?" I can sit back and watch a situation unfold and know what will happen next based on the non-verbal cues. I truly believe that the eyes are the windows to the soul.
I say this because Ed made me physically uncomfortable all season. I just didn't trust him at all. He said all the "right" things to the point where it made me trust him even less. For me, it was like watching someone talk to a used car salesman. But, his eyes were, for lack of a better word, empty. He rarely made eye contact with Jillian. He also seemed to be distant and disinterested at times. While all that was happening, he'd have his arm around her and be saying all the "right" things. For me, it didn't compute.
Another one who gave me pause was Jake. Jake seemed VERY intense to me. A week or two before he was elminated, I posted to that effect. I caught some flack for it, but I watched him closely. He had a smile on his face, but his eyes had this wildness to them. It was obvious that he was not cut out for the competition. He seemed to think that it was in the bag after their one-on-one and when she didn't stick to him like glue afterwards, he became unglued in a way. It made me tremendously uncomfortable and nervous, almost "itchy on the inside" as I say, because he was so tightly wound. Up until the week after their one-on-one, he was one of my favorites. I don't mean to offend anyone, but I find Jake extremely creepy. For that reason, I hope he is not the next bachelor.
Having said all of this, I was absolutely shocked when she sent Reid home and still more shocked when she turned him down . . . despite the spoilers. Because I know what I saw and felt coming from Reid and Jillian together. It was pure. As I wrote on the B board, he touched her soul and vice versa. When she rejected him the second time, I needed to figure out why because it made no sense to me. That's when I applied my own life experiences to the situation. I feel sorry for Jillian because I know what a prison it is to live in a world of insecurity about oneself. I always felt like an imposter who would be found out at any time. The funny thing is that no one who knew me well ever suspected it - EVER - and they all thought of me as very together, competent, good at everything I attempted, etc. I suspect Jillian feels like an imposter when she's alone with her thoughts. That's why she was afraid that she couldn't live up to Kip's standards and why, in my opinion, she couldn't handle the honesty of being with Reid. Honesty like that can see through to the soul and I think she was afraid that Reid could see that on the inside she wasn't who she seemed to be. Unfortunately, the imposter syndrome is always in someone's head and they are actually as good as they seem - at sports, at a job, as a parent, etc. It is only that individual who doesn't know it. So, in summary, I don't feel like I watched a love story unfold anymore, I feel like I watched a Greek tragedy.
On that note, on the B board, I am known more for my wit (I think) than my serious side. I will do my best to get out of my emotional rut and solemn reminiscing so that I can post something funny for all of us to enjoy.
Heidi, you wrote (in another a different thread)
ReplyDelete"Reid would have demanded Jillian be a better woman, as he was made a better man by her. Perhaps she wasn't ready for that kind of challenge. Ed won't be demanding that level of personal growth from her."
Marianna, you wrote:
"On the other hand, she has told us on several occasions that she is used to working hard for her happiness. Just how hard she is willing to work to make a life with Ed a truly happy one, remains to be seen.
With Reid, it all seemed so much more effortless."
While there appears to be a contradiction here, I agree with both of you (and not because I am so agreeable – just ask Nadya). I see the effort mentioned in two different areas. I believe that Reid would hold her to higher expectations of her as a human being. I don't expect that from Ed. I expect Ed to demand more from her in her role as a wife than Reid would. If Jillian is as insecure as we have discussed she will continuously need to "earn" Ed's love. She would never need to do this with Reid. But she does know what to expect. While I see this as much harder than becoming a better person (especially under the gentle guidance of a loving husband), it's probably less scary for her.
It's not for us to tell her what choice she should have made. But as teachers or former teachers, it's really hard to stay neutral when people deny their best selves in the interest of security.
Jim
Heidi, when you call me Sir Tall Oak, you know you're going to get a positive response!
ReplyDeleteIn regards to reading people, I think I'm somewhere in between the extremes. When I was young, I was pretty clueless to body language, even by the low standards of being male. I learned from experience over the years and I'm still learning. I doubt I will ever be as adept at this as the average woman. But even I was acutely aware of the intensity of feeling between Jillian and Reid. There was no subtly there.
Jim
Hi Luv-Kelly,
ReplyDeleteAs I wrote to Heidi, I don't have your gift of "sight". I can't imagine what that's like. I am curious: are your impressions of Ed more negative than they are for the average guy? I get the impression that I wouldn't like him very much but I wouldn't actively dislike him either. I feel certain that Reid and I could be best buds.
What you see in Jake is disconcerting. Attempting to live by the highest possible standards is a very lonely place to be. Living well with other people is all about compromise, which sometimes includes a little moral compromise. Consider how many people were hurt on the Bach Board by those who were convinced that they held the highest peak of the moral high ground?
As far as Reid is concerned, I'm convinced that he would be better for Jillian than any of the bachelors that we got to know. I'm not convinced that she would be best for him (I'm still holding out for him to meet Leen). If her insecurities, her feeling like a fraud did not respond well to his gentle encouragement, she might have become permanent burden to him. So many on the boards assume that the love we saw would unravel the problems that each of them has. That isn't always the case. I also described this ending as a Greek tragedy. But I have to consider that "happily ever after" was not a given.
Finally, as far as being serious or witty, please, please be yourself. We enjoy your witty side. We also enjoy your serious side. Do not feel pressed to be a certain way here. We want you to be who you are.
Jim
Jim,
ReplyDeleteMy impressions of Ed were significantly more negative than I have for the average guy. This will knock your socks off . . . my impressions of Ed were much, much worse than anything I ever felt about Wes. In fact, my gut on Wes tells me that he did go on the show to pursue fame, but he didn't have a girlfriend. I felt that his guilty conscience for not being there for the "right reasons" started to get the best of him and that was why he was such a dud in Spain. My instinct on Wes is that he's a sensitive and sad soul, who has spent much of his life trying to achieve certain goals, but always falling short. I think he got a bum rap and that his only real issue is that he's not the brightest bulb in the box. And, while I disagree with his choice to go on the show for selfish reasons, I think it is likely to be the norm among most of the contestants on these types of shows, frankly. He was definitely an opportunist, but that's hardly a crime punishable by character assassination of the magnitude that he's experienced.
Actually, my gut rarely tells me not to trust someone. I have only had a handful of experiences where I had this strong of a feeling about someone. Because it's not the norm, that made me even more suspicious.
Thanks for your encouragement. I do feel like I can be myself here without fear of retaliaion in words or being reported. I just have a tendency to lean towards satire more comfortably as a general rule, but I'm in kind of a funk for some reason. But, I absolutely feel that my thoughts are welcome here regardless of my genre of choice that day. Thanks to all of you for that.
Sweet dreams all!
Actually, I came to much the same conclusion about Wes. I also consider him an opportunist of a type that is probably very common in this show. His problem is that he wasn't smart enough to keep it to himself. I don't believe this makes him any worse than those who keep their bad intentions to themselves. I suppose the people who judge others on their words are the most vocal with the Wes is Pure Evil theory. I wonder how far Wes would have made it if he used discretion. I would guess at least to F2, if not F1.
ReplyDeleteIt does surprise me that your gut reaction is that Ed is much worse. I thought them to be more on the same level. They both have made careers on saying what others want to hear. I have no way to know. For Jillian's sake, I hope you're wrong in this case!
Jim
Dear Luv-Kelly,
ReplyDeleteI really enjoyed your Skank Party Thread over on the BachBoards tonight. You are very funny, as I've told you before. I was over on the boards trying to find some of our sisters-missing-in-action, to no avail. But I'm glad I got to read that thread, as my final act over there. It is a sad, sad place, and I will not return. As Jim said, though, please feel free to write in any mood you wish. We love it all. It is all real and that is one of the greatest gifts we've all given each other. The ability to express our real selves and thoughts to each other.
I have so much to share with you about my experiences with love that parallel yours, but that will be another "novel" I'll have to save for writing up till tomorrow.
Sweet dreams,
Nadya
Morning all!
ReplyDeleteKelly: I'm thrilled you're over here. Also, thanks so much for your post on the BachBoard in the "Beautiful Post from the Dark Horse Thread." Never expected that thread or the "interesting" comments. ;)
Regarding Ed. After the 1:1 date, starting at Epi 3's cocktail party, Ed's stock plummeted in my book. By Epi 4, esp. his comments about Wes as a country singing t.urd (gotta say, preeettty funny), his stock completely pancaked out for me. When he bailed, I forgot his name. Like you, I'm HUGE on eye contact, even more on active listening. I couldn't quite grasp his non-verbal cues.
As for why Jill picked him, it makes no sense in line with her stipulated characteristic of a best friend, someone to laugh with. Ed has this very off-sense of humor (see Jenga farts) whereas Reid was witty. She belly-laughed with Reid, that vein in her forehead popping out. The best friend she was seeking: Reid. A best friend understands you; there's mutuality and challenge and, above all, ease. I could easily see Jill and Reid deep in thoughtful conversation, even posting together to a blog called Romantic Portrayals, or discussing the latest architecture only to share a very intimate, romantic dinner and canoodling by the fireplace after the analysis was kaput.
With Ed, Jim, you hit it smack dab on. Jill will fill a role, one she seems to be dying to embrace. That's just it: what parts of Jill might be buried when she assumes this new role?
In the end, Jill does still believe she must EARN another's love, the sad side effect of a depressed parent's influence. When her mother mired in her own pain and sadness could only take care of herself, Jill, young and confused, musta sought any possible way to get attention. We know this for sure in the form of The Bachelor 13 and The Bachelorette 5. Her quest for attention runs only second to her deep desire for someone to finally take care of her and love her.
I hope Ed loves her well.
I'm very anti-Ed this AM,
Leen ;)
Oh, and Papa (and M and Nadya):
ReplyDeleteI'm alllllll for turning this blog into our very own Iowa's Writer's Workshop. Too much inspiring and original talent to waste ANY of it.
How would we do that?
Jim,
ReplyDeleteI tend to agree with you that Ed and Wes are alike in that they have both made careers on saying what other people want to hear. But, for me, there's a duality to Wes that makes it less disturbing. By duality, I mean that I think he struggles with his attempts at being heartless and selfish. It's hard for me to explain . . . but I have to go back to his eyes. I think Wes is basically good guy at heart who wants to "taste" the fame to the point where he's pushing the limits. But, I think that it bothers him to use others to get it. To me, the combination of his dunderheadedness and his sensitivity is why he developed a chronic case of verbal diarrhea. He succumbed to an inner struggle, I believe. So, I think he's not as "evil" as posters on the board want us to believe.
On the other hand, there is no duality to Ed. He is smart enough to realize exactly what he's doing and he doesn't care. He's in it to win it (like Wes), but he doesn't care about the collateral damage he leaves in his path (whereas I feel that Wes does care). I think Ed lacks the humanity of Wes and that's where the difference lies in my opinion. So, the Ed type is much more insidious, harder to spot, and more likely to cause lasting damage . . . all without looking back or regretting it. To me, that makes him a worse offender.
It may seem like a fine line to many, but to me it's pretty cut and dried. It's like the difference between someone who steals bread from a grocery store to feed their hungry family vs. someone who steals purses from old ladies because they just want the money. Both are thieves by definition, but I can pity the first thief for reaching the point of desperation. The second thief is much harder to pity because the impetus for their crime is not motivated by anything but greed and they didn't feel guilty about putting a face to their victims. And, yet, it's the first thief who will feel remorse for committing the crime. I'm not sure if I'm explaining this well, but I don't know how else to put it into words.
Leen,
ReplyDeleteYour post on the board was beautifully written and very touching. I was willing to be a lightning rod for bashers because I embrace healthy debate and difference of opinion, but I do not tolerate bullying on the board simply because there's a safety to the anonymity. It's fine that those posters disagreed with your (our) perspective on things, but to use the heartfelt piece you wrote as a springboard to attack all Reid fans was not okay with me. And, I think it did a tremendous disservice to the spirit of your post and to you personally for opening your heart and mind to us. I want to thnk you for your openness of heart, mind and spirit. It has been one of the bright spots on a dark board full of ugliness.
April,
ReplyDeleteI'm glad you enjoyed my silliness on the board. Truth be told, humor and satire usually just flow out of me. That piece was much more forced because I was trying to lighten things up on the board. So, it wasn't my best work. But, I'm feeling the veil of sadness lift so my silly side is coming back. I think being here (as opposed to being on the board) is really helping me get back to my old self. So, thanks to all for that. But, don't worry, I will post from the heart -lighthearted or heavy hearted - on here because I trust you all with either part of me.
This comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteLuv,
ReplyDeleteI understand and agree with the distinction you're making between Wes and Ed. Indeed, there's a huge difference between those who do wrong with a guilty conscience and those who have no conscience, regardless of what they do. I prefer the former to the latter as well. I can't say how well Wes and Ed fit into these categories.
Wes did act very guilty in Spain. Whatever the source of his awkwardness, I think he was troubled by a conscience. My inclination about the whole girlfriend controversy is that he didn't have one during filming. I think he did say he had one and did say that he was going to have lots of sex. That is, I don't think that was totally falsified editing magic. I think he said those things as a defense mechanism against the pain of rejection and being exposed.
When Wes lies, he seems to worry about getting caught. That matters to him. I think that Ed has learned how to build up a conviction to believe his own lies. He has to do that to be successful in his profession. To sell a product that is garbage, you have to work yourself up to believing the customers really need and want it. The sellers are not responsible for the quality of the product. They just have to sell it. I've been in the corporate software world for eighteen years now. I know the sales and marketing types. There are exceptions but generally, one can only succeed in that line if you adopt this ethical shortcut. (GD, as a fellow software developer I welcome your input!)
I don't see Ed as insidious. But I do make a distinction that follows your reasoning to a milder degree. I think that Wes is much worse on the surface but capable of change. If he actually owns up to his misdeeds and his lies, the people who love him (and there seem to be many) might be able to help him change. I don't think Ed will ever change. To whatever degree that there is good or bad in him, I don't think Jillian or anyone else can make him a better person. This is more common than not, especially among men. If Jillian does marry him, I hope that she can adapt to him and be happy in his space because I'm convinced that he will never adapt to her.
Jim
Leen,
ReplyDeleteI'll start a new post about writing. I'll tell everyone my writing background and aspirations and encourage others to do the same.
Papa Jim
P.S. How do you edit a comment? I can only delete it and repost the edited version!
Wow, it's so hard to keep up with all the insightful comments. I want to just put 'ditto' beneath so many of your remarks.
ReplyDeleteJim and Kelly, I feel I am an average student of body language, perhaps above average, if I pay attention to my intuition. It usually takes me some time to process what people say in words and cross reference with what my instincts tell me. Age has taught me to trust those instincts without question. I learned the hard way, as I'm sure most of us have to.
Without referencing your specific quotes, I want to say that I felt similarly about Ed and Wes, without being able to put it into such clear terms.
I had confusion over Ed. Part of me found him attractive and kinda sweet in a nerdy sort of way. I agree with Joanne, who said I think we were not shown much of his sense of humor, but that he definitely made Jillian laugh. I also saw him making his pitch and believe he was in it to 'close the deal'.
Kelly, your insight into Jillian's imposter syndrome was enlightening for me and makes perfect sense as to how she made her choice. I can see now why she wouldn't pick Kipton. I do hope she and Ed are happy long term, but also that she grows to see herself with real confidence.
You said that you didn't think Wes deserved the character assassination of the magnitude he experienced and that really he was just not so bright. Couldn't agree more.
Mostly I wanted to reply to your thoughts on Jake. He gave me the exact same feeling. Creepy! I remember reading some posts on the BB where someone felt he might be sociopathic and even compared him to Ted Bundy! That seems a bit extreme to me, but I do agree that he is not what he pretends to be and there is something frightening about it. So many of the other guys accused him of being fake or an actor. My understanding of a sociopath, is that they are usually excellent at fooling people and hard to spot. So do you think possibly that fits Ed's character more or Jake's, or neither.
I just can't figure out why a great looking, successful guy like Jake is perpetually heartbroken. He admits he's the black sheep of his family and that this happens to him repeatedly (being dumped for being too perfect). I always thought it was because women likely got the creeps and just wanted to run, but tried to say something nice, in fear of what really lay beneath that surface.
I remember a couple of references to his 'god fearing' nature (Wes) and him saying "May god strike me down" when he made his comeback to warn Jillian.
I wondered if perhaps he's perhaps a bit of a zealot?
Love to hear your thoughts on this anyone?
Ann
Ann,
ReplyDeleteI thought the characterization of Jake as a sociopath was a little over the top. I remember reading that after he came back. But, before that happened, I made my comments about him and people nearly lynched me. :)
I think sociopathic is even strong to describe Ed. But, thinking back, he didn't have the kind of relationship with his parents that I would describe as normal. He seemed to get a little irritated with his dad when his dad asked him why they were there. His parents seemed meek compared to him. I remember wondering if he had been adopted because he just didn't fit with them. I think Ed is definitely a player - without a shadow of a doubt, I belive that the poop is about to hit the fan.
I think Jake's "religious" edit was just that, an edit. I don't think someone who is a zealot would go on the show because it would offend their moral sensibilities. Just the thought of vying for the attention of a woman who is dating 24 other men would not sit well with someone who was very Christian because the pure and virginal aspect just isn't there. That's just my opinion, not anything that's proven, of course.
Kelly